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Passing of Steve Howard
I first met Steve at Chingford, Trinity Way in June 2007 when he arrived for a pre-arranged meeting (with Tom and Damon) to visit the recently discovered LBSL offices. Since then I also have been with Steve during night trips around London. My final meeting with him was August 2020 when we met at Acton. He was always ready to help, even taking me up to Dunstable (Hartwell) to see new vehicles. He was always seeking that extra vehicle to add to his list!
Note: Reply edited by Ray, 03/03/21, 11:34.
Wed 03/03/2021, 11:33
LTM Photo
I have amended the link. One can also visit the LTM collection and enter the photo number 1998/78749
Mon 31/08/2020, 15:19
Dead Link
is now a dead link.
Note: Reply edited by Tom Young, 31/08/20, 15:20.
Sun 30/08/2020, 20:54
Variation Sheets (and more) now available again
I have recently completed work on a new section of the LTSV website, created to host John Marshall's huge collection of London Transport document scans. 30,000 have been uploaded so far, with a further 10,000 to be added before the end of 2020. The new site can be found at
Fri 12/06/2020, 14:17
Tom has now posted the V.R.C for this lorry. You will note that a goods licence was applied when transferred to Chiswick 1/11/1956.
Tue 19/05/2020, 15:07
Variation Sheets (temporarily) unavailable
John's Marshall's extensive collection of LT documents has not been available on-line for the past couple of months, following changes to Google's services. Work is in hand to make alternative arrangements for their hosting and it is hoped that they will be accessible again from spring 2020. I will provide an update here when this happens.
Sat 23/11/2019, 21:57
Modern Model SVs
I have just posted two photos showing three recently-released Oxford Diecast vans in various service vehicle liveries. The first can be seen at
Thu 04/04/2019, 23:55
More model modern SVs on the way
Thanks this time to John for reporting that Oxford Diecast's future plans also now include a Tube Lines Ford Transit Connect van (see and the unique LUL Land Rover Freelander (
Fri 24/08/2018, 01:58
Era error
It seems to work for me as well. Remember that you have to pick a value and then click on the 'Find' button.
Sun 28/05/2017, 10:38
Works for me; tried them all and each provided relevant photos.
Thu 25/05/2017, 21:31
London Bus Museum
Should that be the 22nd Oct. The 23rd is a Monday.
Sun 08/01/2017, 11:12
Holly (my cat) only knows five phrases
1. Let me in
2. Let me out
3. Feed me
4. Do that again, I like it
5. Don't do that again, I don't like it
Fri 28/10/2016, 02:47
You are getting old when
the cat talks back to you, especially about service vehicles.
Wed 26/10/2016, 11:00
I know I am getting old because....
...I got a cat. And I talk to it. A lot.
Tue 25/10/2016, 22:25
Another thing I hate is...
...companies that have a 'social media' presence. If I 'like' Sainsburys, will it 'like' me?
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:11
Another thing I hate is...
...people who complain about all the things they hate...
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:10
Another thing I hate is...
...that it seems you have to be ruthless to be successful these days. I have always considered myself to be ruthful.
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:10
Another thing I hate is...
...people who occupy just the aisle seat on crowded buses or trains. If, when asked, these 'windowphobes' offer to let me squeeze past, I try and make sure my rucksack whacks them in the face.
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:09
I know I am getting old because....
...the past seems better than the future.
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:07
I know I am getting old because....
...I dont 'get' social media.
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:07
I know I am getting old because...., sorry, I forgot what I was going to say. I'm sure it was something funny though.
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:06
I know I am getting old because....
...I get nervous walking around Camden Town at 2am.
Thu 15/09/2016, 14:06
Purley Tram Depot
I have looked into the various record cards and it would seem Croydon (T) refers to Purley rather than Thornton Heath (which is shown as another allocation). The CRD unit was at Purley from 7/9/48 to 29/11/49. As both tractors (one replaced the other) were apparently unlicensed it would seem they were used for tram movement prior to breaking. Not living (in the area) at that time I cannot confirm, but P.W. staff are shown in another of my books as being based at Purley around this time. What 'transport' they used was not stated.
Thu 02/06/2016, 12:55
2016 Update (3)
For the Regent Street event on 3rd July see (TfL press release)
Sat 28/05/2016, 16:15
Purley Tram Depot
Ray, I have never heard of Thornton Heath tram depot or bus garage referred to as Croydon Tram Depot in the days I resided nearby (1939-1963) nor from my neighbour who worked from there and Telford Avenue. Certainly that was the formal name LPTB gave to Aurelia Road tram depot when reopened for the transfer of Cohen's scrapping operations from Brixton Hill depot in 1935 (when needed for Telford Avenue operations when that depot had to be altered to take the Felthams). However, as both tractors were also allocated to Charlton CRD and Purley was transformed into a CRD annex during the period shown then 'Croydon Tram Depot' in this context must have been Purley.
Wed 25/05/2016, 17:55
Purley Tram Depot
Both the tractors 467X and 627X are shown as allocated to 'Croydon Tram Depot' which probably means Thornton Heath (as now is)
Wed 25/05/2016, 14:11
Purley Tram Depot
As there seems to be no way of retrieving my original post that did not get saved then please this as the original one! Purley was never a permanent way depot as the title states. It may have been used for overnight stays in a secure location. An operational tram depot until September, 1937, it became a tram scrapyard from November 1937 with the transfer of Cohens from Croydon Tram Depot. Ex-MET trams were the last to be scrapped before WW2 caused it to become a wartime store (did open operationally for one week). Scrapping of cars there recommenced in 1945 and when finished the depot was reopened as an annex to Charlton CRD to overcome the backlog of work after the war. With the reconstruction of South Croydon garage and the impending Thornton Heath depot conversion, Purley was considered as a Bus Maintenance Depot for both. I had seen the plans of what was never to be. With the scrapping of five Felthams there in December,1949, the following New Year's Day saw it reopened as an operational depot until the end of the 16/18/42 services in April, 1951. The depot was sold to Henry Streeter as an HGV depot. Thus I recommend that the title shown be changed to ''Purley Tram Depot''.
Wed 25/05/2016, 10:24
2016 Update (2)
West Ham 23rd July - A NEW AND EXCITING BUS SHOW FOR LONDON. Over 50 Different Types on Display at West Ham Garage Adult £7.00 (or advance) £5.00 Child (under 18) £4.00/£3.00 Senior (65+) £4.00/£3.00 Family (2 + 2) £18.00/£13.00. Official Programme £3.50/£2.75. See
Note: Reply edited by Ray, 22/05/16, 17:26.
Sun 22/05/2016, 17:26
2016 update (1)
LOTS have been showing an open day at West Ham on 23rd July. However, the Metro of 20th May shows Twickenham (FW?) September 17th and Stockwell October 15th without mention of WH, TC or PB. Seems best to wait until confirmation of each is published just prior to the event.
Fri 20/05/2016, 14:58
Croydon Tram Depot
Just caught up with the ''Therapia Lane depot'' entry so my question has been answered!!!
Sat 14/05/2016, 10:45
Tram Depot
Yes, I agree. In ploughing through correspondence of the late Burrows Brothers, when delivered to East Ham Library in 1970s, I came across comments from some of the well known, and missed, transport enthusiasts of 1938 about the future of the preserved buses at Chiswick Works and whether with war looming they were to be moved to the Cricket Pavilion as the Works would be a target!!! Coupled with this from internal LPTB sources was that a short list was made of trams to be preserved which could be accommodated in Chiswick Tram Depot. The inference was that this was a better place for the buses than a pavilion! LPTB finally selected Type HD 290 from the twelve trams at West Ham depot retained for the 'dog run' but offered a Type H car for sale. Pity LPTB did not offer the buyer storage for it in the ''Tram Depot'' and we could well have saved one of these ex-MET cars. Alas, I was only born in November of that year so could not help!
Note: Reply edited by Colin Withey, 11/05/16, 15:26.
Wed 11/05/2016, 15:24
Emergency Incident Vehicle
Many thanks, red and white battenburg not present on the one noted,but all other details as per your replies.
Tue 31/03/2015, 04:09
Emergency Incident Vehicle
I agree this sounds like 7529F. This has LUL wh/blu/red livery with an additional waist stripe of red/white checks plus red/yellow chevrons on the rear. It also has a rear ladder (but no roof rack) and a very small light-bar near the back of the roof.
Mon 30/03/2015, 01:42
Emergency Incident Vehicle
Sounds like 7529F LT62TVU, often to be seen parked by the railway line at Acton, Frank Pick House. There is a photo on the site of the vehicle since it was repainted into this livery.
Note: Reply edited by Steve Howard, 30/03/15, 00:21.
Mon 30/03/2015, 00:20
Update on Little Bus Company service vehicles
As of 16th March 2015 the patterns for 832J are complete, as are the drawings for the other two. More orders are required for the 447W stores/towing lorry if both the skirted and unskirted versions are to be produced, so contact Tony Asquith via the LBC website with your orders if you dont want to miss out. Unfortunately its not possible to have separate skirts without a hefty increase in moulding costs, but it may be possible to have the skirted version (as in the picture) made so as to allow them to be cut off, though chassis detail might be compromised.
Mon 16/03/2015, 17:36
Inclusion of busco in graph
Hi Tom, When you refer to quantities in the ''fleet'' I believe TFL and the private operators should be kept separate as I cant see why they should correlate. Including them together in the graph columns is distracting as one has to mentally add the TFL bits together before making comparisons. Fortunately the busco figures have been fairly uniform over the years but if they were to register dips and surges it would make it even harder to follow. Cant they have their own columns and then you could refer to fleets in the plural? LLAP Clive
Sat 28/02/2015, 12:54
Fleet intake graph 2001-2014
I forgot to add this graph which shows the (approximate) number of vehicles added to each segment of the fleet for the years 2001 to 2014. The relatively low number of vehicles added in 2014 is apparent, particularly for the central fleet (shown as Leased or Un-num). The previous dip in 2010 can also be seen.

Tue 27/01/2015, 14:04
West Green Firemen
According to TfL archives West Green was home to the ''Road services Fire Safety Section''.
Note: Reply edited by Damon, 26/12/14, 23:56.
Fri 26/12/2014, 23:38
Cycle hire list updated
I was considering the possibility of adding the Cycle Hire support vehicles to the database, thus enabling sightings etc. Does anyone have any views on this? In the meantime, I have updated the list here.

All of the original vehicles have been replaced. Information has been added about A07, M02, M04 and N02. The identities of A04, F01-F03, F06 and F07 are not known. The current fleet appears to be a small number of normal Ford Transit vans (for machine maintenance?) and a larger batch of specialised Ford Transit box vans for cycle movement. Sadly they do not carry fleetnumbers. The latest addition is a Fiat Ducato box van.
Tue 02/09/2014, 10:50
Another name?
Keolis will take over from Serco in December 2014. Whether they, or indeed TfL, will supply new vehicles remains to be seen.
Fri 04/07/2014, 12:47
Bus events in 2014
I have just edited the list above, adding an open day at Dartford on 7th September. It would also be worth mentioning the bus cavalcade in Regent Street on Sunday 22nd June, and the RM60 event at Finsbury Park on 12th/13th July. A useful list can be found at
Tue 10/06/2014, 00:15
These four Fords have been added to the database, although the registration of the last (BV13CGP) appears to be incorrect. They have been added as 'Other Company' vehicles under 'Serco DLR'. Reports and/or photos of any other DLR-related vehicles would be welcomed.
Wed 04/06/2014, 13:16
DLR support vehicles 19/04/2014 at Poplar depot
All Ford Transits BD13BTU BF13FSA BN12JDO BV13CGP (Fleet 001 painted on above front window)....
Wed 28/05/2014, 14:38
This subject was raised here a few years ago (see I would be happy enough to add details (and/or photos) of any DLR vehicles that are reported. However, there would be a large gap in the data from the time when the DLR used CDS-supplied vehicles (about 1992) to the present.
Tue 27/05/2014, 15:47
''London Transport Cap Badges'' and buses firemen
A book I have rediscovered, ''London Transport Cap Bages'' by David Lawrence, includes info on Central Road Services Firemen, from which I'll summarise. Formed for WW2 to assist the regular fire services at the main works. By the early 1950s there were three Brigades under Chief Firemen for Acton/Aldenham/Chiswick works, Charlton/Fulwell works, and for garages/depots/other buildings/vehicles. This last brigade contained 10 men, but there's no mention of where they were based. During 1950-3 the Charlton Chief attended to Penhall Road (as seen in the video below) Brigades disbanded late sixties and 3 Fire Equipment Inspectors (without badges!)allocated to Bus Engineering section to deal with the garages.
Note: Reply edited by , 18/05/14, 21:09.
Sat 17/05/2014, 14:18
Penhall Road (British Pathe)
A view of a Fireman's Badge can be found 2:08 minutes into
Sun 11/05/2014, 21:21
London Transport Auctions Limited - Apr 2014
Another 'Fireman's' badge is being auctioned at this event.
Note: Reply edited by Ray, 20/04/14, 11:04.
Sat 19/04/2014, 19:56
Preserved LT service vehicles
To see a list of preserved service vehicles, click on 'Fleet Data' above, then pick pick 'Preserved' from the Status drop-down list and click on Show. This currently returns a list of 30 vehicles, although some have not been seen for a long time, while a couple of others may be imposters. I suppose I should now add the two Unimogs at Acton Museum Depot....
Mon 14/04/2014, 23:19
London Transport Auctions Limited (Oct '13)
This badge was sold under Lot 456 London Transport ''Fireman'' BADGE issued from the late 1940s onwards to the members of the LT Buses fire brigades until disbandment in the late 1960s. Badge is nickel with enamel inlays and is in excellent condition.
Tue 25/02/2014, 23:49
Thanks Ray, that's the one, I searched the fleet data for cherry picker, access platform and all !
Thu 20/02/2014, 20:04
Already in stock?
Did it look like 6794F (see photo) ?
Wed 19/02/2014, 21:06
Damon - You are absolutely correct - I was sure I had seen a red and cream ''J'' at Acton. Obviously hallucinating. Arun
Sun 02/02/2014, 19:45
''J'' breakdown tenders
830J is at the LTM and is all red not red & cream. Other preserved ''J's'' are 738J and 739J also all red and I think 832J is currently in red & cream. Photos of all are probably on this website somewhere.
Sun 02/02/2014, 17:42
Red and cream vehicles
One of the ex-STL breakdown tenders is preserved by LT at Acton in red and cream livery. IIRC, the red is Ayres Red ie., bus red rather than underground red.
Sun 02/02/2014, 02:18
London deep-level shelters
Wikipedia gives details of the eight shelters (plus two others that were proposed). It seems that immigrants ex the mv Windrush were housed in the Clapham shelter for a time. By coincidence, the BBC London News had a story yesterday (30/1/2014) on the shelter, stating that, due to the advancement in LED lighting technology, the plant-friendly temperature found 100ft below ground, and with some support from celebrity chef Michel Roux Jnr, the damp Second World War air raid shelter is being transformed into the capital’s first underground farm (herbs etc.).
Fri 31/01/2014, 14:32
More on Clapham and Stockwell
The Clapham Society text and the pictures on their site appear to come from the book on ''London's Secret Tubes'' by Capital Transport which is where I gleaned most of my information from. As for Stockwell Garage it was originally planned as a Trolleybus Depot so the L.P.T.B. must have owned the vacant part of the site before the war although I never realised it was used for shelter construction purposes. Interesting stuff!
Wed 29/01/2014, 00:31
Spoil from shelter construction
Right, the answer to my last question is apparently 20 feet (see below), although this means it was not spread across the whole of Clapham Common! I wonder where this ''pile'' went? I lived near Clapham Common for my first 25 years and I don't recall anything that big. Anyway, the following text was lifted from, which is a long and interesting article.

One of the problems was what to do with the enormous amounts of spoil removed — estimated at 200,000 cubic yards (153,000 cubic metres) south of the river. London Transport negotiated the purchase of 130 second-hand lorries at £425 — £500 each to carry it away. The London County Council gave permission for 125,000 cubic yards (96,000 cubic metres) to be dumped on Clapham Common and the height of this dump rose to 20 feet (6 metres). A site in Nightingale Lane was identified for the deposit of 20,000 cubic yards (15,300 cubic metres) and this was close enough to allow a gantry for spoil transfer. A further 20,000 cubic yards (15,300 cubic metres) were similarly dumped at Clapham North on the site of three bomb damaged houses in Clapham Road after allotment holders there had been given £5 each to relocate.
Tue 28/01/2014, 23:35
Shelters on Clapham Common
As this thread drifts somewhat further off-topic, Damon's comments reminded me of the ''humps'' in the western-most rectangle of Clapham Common. I'm sure these had access doors, suggesting they were shelters or similar, but I can't find any mention of them on-line. If they were shelters then they would have produced spoil rather than consumed it. Since Clapham Common is very flat I have no idea where the spoil Damon mentioned went. Mind you, it is 220 acres. What would 125,000 cubic yards spread over 220 acres look like???
Tue 28/01/2014, 23:17
Stockwell Shelter Construction yard
I plan to review the 1939-1948 Advice Book after completing the current run of Variation Sheets, but I had a recollection of seeing Stockwell mentioned in it. However, a quick flick has turned up that many of the 2nd hand vehicles went initially to Battersea (where??), then some to Chalk Farm. In a couple of cases the vehicles have a company name next to them. This made me think that perhaps the 130 vehicles Damon mentioned were in fact the SVs in the number range 498 to 624. Both the quantities and the dates are roughly right. Anyway, I then found the transfer of no fewer than 61 SVs to ''CE (B&C) Deep Shelter Pool, 51 Lansdowne Way, Stockwell'' in the first few days of June 1941, with more soon after. There is a nice map of the proposed site of Stockwell Garage in Ken Glazier's ''LT Garages'' (Capital Transport 2006) and this shows number 51 being on a large triangular patch of land pretty much corresponding to the eventual main building of the garage.
Tue 28/01/2014, 23:08
Stockwell shelter construction yard
I see this site gets a mention from Tom on this thread. Do we know where? Can we assume it was simply that roundabout thingy where one of the entrances currently stands brightly painted? During construction the L.P.T.B. dumped spoil from shelter construction in several sites. There was a corner of Regents Park for the North London shelters. Then there was apparently 125,000 cubic yards dumped on Clapham Common and a further 20,000 cubic yards found its way to a site at Nightingale Lane near to Clapham South. Moving on to service vehicles the L.P.T.B. allegedly took on 80 second hand lorries in February 1941 and another 50 in May 1941. These remained the property of the Ministry of Home Security however the L.P.T.B. were responsible for looking after them and they were actually used by contractors.
Tue 28/01/2014, 20:13
Silwood Depot - more detail
More detail can be found at and includes a rather splendid map at This suggests depot buildings although they're not for putting trains in. Hopefully this clarifies the status of this site.
Note: Reply edited by Damon, 29/01/14, 00:43.
Tue 28/01/2014, 19:34
Silwood Triangle
Excellent, thanks Damon. The sidings are not going to be covered, but there will be anciliary buildings, so I guess we could call this Silwood Depot with a code of SWD. SWS (for Silwood Sidings) is an option but I think I might need that later for Stockwell Shelter Construction yard (a wartime location).
Tue 28/01/2014, 11:28
Silwood Triangle?
Is this not the location of new sidings for LOROL as part of the 5th car project? There is a photo in the January edition of Modern Railways (page 9). The caption to this photo refers to Silwood Depot and states that ten five-car siding are being installed.. Is this site actually known as Silwood Sidings or even Silwood Depot I wonder?
Note: Reply edited by Damon, 27/01/14, 13:32.
Mon 27/01/2014, 13:24
DASM (Distribution & Advertising Service Manager)
I should have checked my sources on this one. According to the excellent Rennie/Aldridge SV book, CDS (Central Distribution Services) became DS in 1967, then soon afterwards changed again to DASM when it took over the responsibility for the posting of adverts. The latter service was separated out again during the 1970s, after which the department became known as Distribution Services (or DSM for Distribution Services Manager).
Mon 20/01/2014, 14:00
Maybe 'Works' meant either Chiswick or Aldenham
My work with the variation sheets has now reached spring 1968 and a resolution of the 'Works' issue is still not at hand. I had believed that Works was used to represent one of either Aldenham or Chiswick but now I am thinking that perhaps it did actually mean either. Here are a couple of examples. In the first three cases, Works seems to mean Chiswick, while in the fourth it is Aldenham.
Canteen tractor unit 700B was photographed at Chiswick Works on 01/05/1967, the day it was shown as being Transferred and Delicensed, Southall to Works.
Car ALM810B was transferred to Chiswick RSI on 18/12/1967. The next day it was shown as being delicensed to Works. Note that this was not 'Transferred and delicensed'.
Uniform issue units 1465W to 1468W were licensed to the Stores Superintendent on 01/10/1967 but the location is given as Works.
Utilabrake 1152F was allocated to Aldenham with the Works & Building Engineer. On 01/01/1968 it was listed as delicensed at Works (again, not Transferred and delicensed).

By the way, there does seem to be a marked decline in the number of service vehicle entries in the variation sheets from mid-1967. For example, the first 3 months of 1968 contain only 10 entries. Whether this relates to less detailed record-keeping, or a more stable fleet, is not yet known.
Mon 20/01/2014, 01:55
A few more
You could add Charlton, Fulwell, West Ham, and Effra Road, and even go back to 'tramways' works if you wish to make the list complete.
Mon 13/01/2014, 07:41
Was it not this era when what we now know as Stamford Brook (a.k.a. Chiswick Tram Shed) became the service vehicle ''works'' for a period? CDS moved into the old traffic office at Chiswick Tram Shed in 1958. By 20th July 1966 the BEA fleet had moved into Chiswick Tram Shed which became CB. From sometime before 1949 until sometime after 1963 Chiswick Tram Shed is referred to in L.T. directories as ''Chiswick Coach Factory'' which is a bit of a works isn't it? Does that tie in with the right dates or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Note: Reply edited by Damon, 10/01/14, 18:26.
Fri 10/01/2014, 14:25
Aldenham again
Just to clarify, this question is about the use of Aldenham for service vehicles after 1960. The early days are covered here. My progress through the documents has now reached May 1962, and is currently passing through a phase where the name Aldenham did reappear for most new and redundant vehicles. Though this might support the theory that 'Works' does equal Aldenham, I am continuing to input the records (almost) exactly as they appear. Exceptions are cases such as a vehicle being delivered to 'Works' but the next entry showing it as being licensed 'ex Aldenham', or withdrawn to 'Works' then sold 'ex Aldenham' (or vice versa). For these, the 'Works' entries will be set to Aldenham.
Thu 09/01/2014, 15:20
''Works'' we know
Thinking of Works we know....
Chiswick Bus Works
Aldenham Bus Works
Parsons Green Works
Acton Works
North Road Coachworks
Seagrave Road Coachworks
Olaf Street Coachworks

Note: Reply edited by Damon, 12/01/14, 22:12.
Mon 06/01/2014, 20:59
After the end of its war use in 1945 Aldenham was first adapted for bus use in 1949. This actually just BEFORE the decision was made to abandon the Bushey extension of the Northern Line. From what I can tell it then became the receiving point for all new road vehicles
Sun 05/01/2014, 21:20
Firemans van at West Green
I should add that the entry dated 25/11/1948 is a bit unclear but the first two letters are certainly 'Fi'. However, the vehicle was later shown as being a normal RSE (RS) one.
Sat 07/12/2013, 03:23
Rye Lane PW closure date
Having progressed a bit further, it seems the last mention of Rye Lane Permanent Way Depot in the advice book is dated 27/09/1950. The first mention of Bowles Road is dated 10/11/1950, so could the changeover have been between these two dates? Also, did Bowles Road also take over from Deptford Wharf? Sadly there are no transfers associated with either change listed in the advice book, but some Deptford vehicles are later listed at Bowles Road.
Sat 07/12/2013, 03:21
Wood Lane, September 1949
I now believe these movements were in connection with the formation of CDS (Central Distribution Services), although the moves to Wood Lane appear to have been either short-lived or un-realised. The next reference to each of the vehicles concerned shows them as being in the CDS Gp.3 Chiswick Pool.
Wed 04/12/2013, 14:54
Early uses of Aldenham
Thanks Ray, I think this one can be closed now.
Wed 04/12/2013, 14:52
Conversion of ex WD AEC Matadors
I have copies of the Chiswick record cards for the 8 Matadors, which give some further information. The card for 751P shows specifically Langley Rd. Slough.
749P's card gives the full details of the coachbuilder as Metro Automobile Co. Ltd. Uxbridge Rd, Hayes, Middlesex. Also there is no card entry for 750 or 754P going to Metro, although surely they must have been built there and somehow the information did not get recorded.
The records show 748/49/53P were sold to British Road Services, 222 Marylebone Rd. NW1., whereas 754P is shown as sold to Western Region (B.R.S.) Slough.
Tue 03/12/2013, 08:55
Wikipedia says
Although Aldenham had dealt with new vehicles and accident repairs from about 1945 it did not start full scale overhauling of bus bodies until 1949/50 and until 1955 chassis' were still dealt with at Chiswick
Sun 01/12/2013, 17:38
Articles on LTSV
Ref articles, I too would like to see some more added, and I would welcome any contributions or suggestions. A list of buses converted to service vehicles would be very easy to produce so long as it only considered those vehicles given new fleetnumbers in the service vehicles series. However there are other vehicles which perhaps should be included. These include the T-type single deckers used as snow ploughs, the Green Line coaches converted to canteens and USA ambulances during WW2, numerous B-types rebuilt as lorries, etc. This would obviously require a fair amount of research....
Thu 17/10/2013, 23:53
Why there are no recent fleetlists in the Articles section
Ref the lack of recent PDF fleetlists, I hadn't intended to produce any more of these for the following reasons:
1. The PDFs had to be manually set up and were out of date almost as soon as they were created.
2. Printable versions have been added to the main database list pages (click on 'View Print - Page' to print the current page or 'View - Continuous' to print all selected entries).
3. New editions of SUP24 are being produced every couple of years.
4. My choice of list layout may not suit everyone's tastes.
However, LTSV3 will take into account people who want to be able to print lists, and there will hopefully be some customisable reports for this purpose.
Thu 17/10/2013, 23:52
LTSV is 10 years old
My personal feeling is the present layout of the pages works well, why spoil it. I would like to see more up to date printable lists and some new articles written on LTSV topics, like a list of Bus conversions to service stock, I would very grateful of any lists there might be. As to photographs, they look fine to me as well. This web site fills a gap not covered by other Societies that I belong to. Brian Elvidge, Tilbury, Essex.
Mon 14/10/2013, 21:02
20 things I don't like about LTSV
Below is a list of some aspects of LTSV that I think need improving (in approximate order of importance). Since these are the things that I have thought of, they are the ones that I am trying to address in my work towards LTSV3. If you can think of anything I have missed, please let me know.

1. Changing data (eg liveries) is not well covered
At present all information about a given vehicle (apart from its allocation/s) is stored in a single table. As such, there can only be one value for fields such as the livery, operator, registration number etc. However, a lot of vehicles do see changes to one or more attribute during their lives. For example, Ford van 710F carried three registration numbers during its time with LT, but searching for PXV350 will not find it. Similarly, Bedford 826B started out as a lorry but spent most of its life as a tanker. If you search for tanker, 826B will not return since it is listed as a lorry. More recently, you can't search for Grey Green vehicles if they are listed as Arriva London.

2. Assigning IDs to vehicles is problematic
For the purposes of the database each vehicle is assigned a numerical ID. For central fleet vehicles, the ID is the fleetnumber, while others are given IDs in approximate registration order. This raises two problems. Firstly there are a few instances of the same fleetnumber being assigned to 2 vehicles. One of the 2 vehicles then has to be given an ID in the 'un-numbered' range. Secondly, when assigning IDs to un-numbered vehicles, I leave gaps to allow for later additions. But sometimes these gaps get filled and subsequent additions have to be given out-of-sequence IDs. This may only be apparent when using the 'previous/next' links to move between vehicles.

3. Some vehicles appear twice
Due to the limitations mentioned in item 1 above, some vehicles have two entries. These are mainly vehicles that passed from LT to LCBS, from LT to the privatised bus companies, and some bus company vehicles that were re-registered. Although this solves the problem of finding the vehicles, it raises problems with sightings and photos, which may then have to be 'tagged' to 2 vehicle entries.

4. Withdrawn vehicles are treated as sold
The database does not distinguish between withdrawn and sold. If a vehicle is marked as withdrawn (for example due it being delicensed), it will no longer appear as current with the owner, even though it may be still owned. Recently Abellio and London United have hung on to redundant vehicles for some time.

5. The hash sign on livery details spoils the searching
A while back I started adding a hash sign to the livery of vehicles that were unmarked (eg 'Red #'). However, this means that you can't easily get a list of (for example) all red vehicles. There are some other inconsistencies regarding liveries. For example, some dark blue vehicles are listed as 'Dark blue', others as 'Blue (dark)'. LBSL IRUs are listed as 'Red' but should perhaps be 'Red/Orange/Yellow'. New LUL vehicles are listed in the database as 'White/Blue/Red' but photos of them are tagged as 'White/Blue'.

6. The back button causes problems
This is an old one and is due to the way the webpages pass information between themselves. If you look at a list of vehicles, and then look at the details of one of them, you might then want to use the browser's back button to go back to the list. However, if you do you get a message saying the webpage has expired (!), although you can refresh and resend the information.

7. There is only one editor
The majority of the vehicle data can only be edited by me, hence it may not be as topical as possible. I could easily grant permissions to others but the editing pages really need to be made easier to use first.

8. You can't easily view sightings at a given location
If you were thinking of going to Brockley Hill Farm (or wherever), you might want to see which SVs people have reported seeing there. At present, the only way to do this is to view the sighting list sorted by location name. But, there are over 60,000 sightings in the database. Also, since locations are entered as text, some people might have put 'near Brockley Hill Farm', 'Staff car park at Brockley Hill Farm', 'Broklee Hill Form' or virtually anything!

9. Allocation histories are still not available
A couple of years ago we obtained documents that provide full allocation histories for virtually all LT service vehicles, but this information is still not in the database. I wanted to get the structure right before starting on the data entry.

10. Trade plates and pre-1939 numbers are not sortable or searchable
Related to items 1 and 9, this is information that is now available but is not yet included. Some information is included in the notes fields but this is obviously not sortable or searchable.

11. The date on the Notes field can be deceptive
A fairly minor one this. The notes section shows when each note was added but not when it was last edited. This can be confusing, for example if a note dated 2008 says a vehicle was withdrawn in 2013!

12. The forum is rather untidy and overly complex
Can't really expand on that much!

13. The automatically added 'Edited by' notes are annoying
If you add a note or a comment, then need to edit it (for example to fix a typing error), some text is automatically added to show who has edited it and when. If you have to edit more than once, these notes multiply! A simple time-out would be better (eg edits by the original poster within 10 minutes would not generate notes).

14. Can't filter/sort vehicles by your seen/unseen
When you are logged in, vehicle lists have a green tick next to any vehicle you have logged a sighting of. However, you might want to be able to see a list of just vehicles you have (or haven't) seen.

15. Links in Notes are not links
If you post a link into a notes or comments field, it does not behave as a link.

16. Inconsistencies in Other Companies
At first, vehicles of various other companies were included (eg contractors responsible for bus recovery or ticket machine maintenance) as were vehicles that were hired. There is no clear policy on what is included, while many of the vehicles remain current in the database although are long gone.

17. Inconsistencies in unused fleetnumbers
Quite a few central fleetnumbers go un-used. Up to number 5833, these were included in the database as 'blank' entries, making them more visible. Since then, unused numbers have not been listed at all.

18. No help
I like to think that LTSV is easy to use but some people have mentioned being unclear on aspects (eg how to add a sighting). There should be some guidance notes for common tasks.

19. Some text areas are too wide to be easily read
Blocks of text can become difficult to read if they are too wide (your eye loses the line when you scan back to the left), especially if the text is small. This page here is a good example.

20. Some page jumps are tricky
Where results are spread across many pages, buttons are provided to navigate between pages. On the photos page, these only allow you to go to the next or previous 100 photos (ie you can't jump right to the end of a large selection), while the data pages have first, last and five pages either side of your current page. Both could be improved.
Sun 13/10/2013, 13:36
Thanks for the positive feedback Robin.
Sun 13/10/2013, 13:34
Happy Birthday!
Happy with the site, easy to navigate as it is, especially fleet data.
Fri 04/10/2013, 16:53
Stratford Market Depot
For those who missed the event there are plenty of photos on Flickr, some with staff posing, some with visitors posing.
Mon 23/09/2013, 23:29
Stratford Market Depot open house
The event at Stratford Market Depot was very interesting. As part of the Openhouse weekend, guided tours of the Jubilee Line depot were offered, covering most of the inside of the main train shed. The knowledgeable guides pointed out items of interest and were able to answer most of the many questions that visitors asked. We were given close up views of a newly refurbished bogie, and the ingenious detraining steps built into the front doors of the trains. My main reason for going on the tour was the hope of seeing some of the large number of service vehicles based here. However, the tour did not cover the main vehicle yard, and the large skills centre building meant that it was never visible. As such, only about a dozen SVs were seen, of which only one or two could be photographed. In any case, we were advised that photos taken on the day had to be for personal use only and must not be published on websites or elsewhere.
Mon 23/09/2013, 11:01
Not the Neasden Open Day
From what I've heard this is an ex-open day. It has ceased to be.
Mon 02/09/2013, 20:28
Neasden Depot open day postponed
I have been advised that this event has been postponed. More info as soon as I have it.
Tue 09/07/2013, 23:26
Metrobus Open Day update
Preserved Metrobus vehicles will operate free services between MB & C and also between C & CY so it may be possible to do all three in a day.
Wed 22/05/2013, 21:18
Metrobus open days
That sounds good, thanks for the heads-up Ray. It might be tough to do all three on the day though!
Fri 26/04/2013, 15:13
Friends pay half price (£5) - there is no free entry. One can catch a District line train to Turnham Green and change there for Piccadilly line train services (which will call there on both days) to get to Acton Town from the east.
Sat 30/03/2013, 21:18
Tree Loppers
A photo of the top deck of 971J can be found at From my memories of 970J at Northfleet in the early 1960's the only hole on the top deck was for the staircase, down which some smaller items could have been thrown or fallen. Certainly with this batch, and later pruning vehicles, some side panels were cut, able to be folded down and used as standing platforms. Any further changes (holes) to the top deck floor would presumably have made the upper deck unsafe and the body not rigid. The cut branches would have fallen stright to the pavement (as they do today) and may have been loaded through the rear 'emergency' door. The windows remained painted glass in most cases.
Mon 11/02/2013, 09:56
Oxford Transit
The SWB versions are now out.
Sat 22/12/2012, 20:05
Variation Sheets
See also this posting for the links:
Fri 28/09/2012, 21:46
Variation Sheets
Cocker2, I've sent you an e-mail.
Mon 24/09/2012, 01:23
London Transport 'Variations in Rolling Stock' sheets
You mention London Transport 'Variations in Rolling Stock' sheets, where can I view these please.
Sat 22/09/2012, 10:49
Willesden Garage open day cancelled
I have heard that the open day planned for 29th September 2012 has been cancelled. Confirmation when I get it.
Mon 10/09/2012, 00:32
Another open day
Leyton garage is having an open day on Sat 22nd Sept 2012. On the same day there will be guided tours of West Ham garage, but these need to be booked in advance
Tue 07/08/2012, 10:35
More central fleet charting
With work on LTSV3 having hit another (temporary) technical roadblock, I put my 'statto' hat on last night to produce some updated charts of the central fleet.

The first two show the intake of the leased fleet by plotting fleetnumbers against (approximate) dates of entry into service. They therefore update the ones that appeared in my article in 2006. The first covers numbers 6000 to 7500 and shows that the rate of intake slowed slightly during 2010 and 2011 but has now picked up again.

The second is the same but covers the whole leased fleet from number 3000 in 1982.

I have also updated the fleet composition chart that featured in this article back in 2004. The data is now more accurate and shows the fleet composition by make at 1st January every 4 years. Apart from the significant fleet growth since 2000, the recent rise of Peugeot and Renault are also apparent. Note that this chart does not include miscellaneous items (trailers, sweepers etc) or 'private' cars.
Mon 23/07/2012, 14:24
Oxford Diecast AEC Matador wrecker
The Wynn's model is now available and looks pretty good. Service vehicle versions are due out later including Southdown. Looks promising. If you're reading this Oxford people then let's have a 583J please.
Thu 12/07/2012, 20:36
1164F model by Oxford
Oxford's model of Ford 400E Utilabrake personnel carrier (what a mouthful!) has been released. Bought mine today in the local Modelzone. £12.99. Nice little model.
Sat 07/04/2012, 17:45
Feb 22nd Aldwych Emergency Exercise
Some photos taken at this exercise have been published at Of note was the presence of veteran communications truck 2488M, its first sighting in over 3 years. BTP/ERU 2593 was the only other SV involved. Thanks to Keith for the link.
Sat 25/02/2012, 00:25

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